"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"
Thomas Jefferson

Thursday, April 24, 2008

DEC And The ATV Battle

The issue of the ATV recreational enjoyment and DEC's brick wall that has been placed in front of them is not going away anytime soon. The riders, as well as the businesses owners who earn a livelihood from the riders, are hot on the trail and they have some partners in their effort to resolve their issues.

The DEC administratively executed a blanket closure of roads almost a week ago, precisely one day after the SNIRT ride that attracted 1400 riders to this area from a variety of states in the northeast. The economic impact of that ride was in the hundreds of thousands of dollars for area businesses. The length of stay in the area for the riders surveyed averaged approximately 2 days. The exposure of the outdoor activity in this region was tremendous and riders were said to be enthusiastic about a return visit, but the calls have been flooding representatives since the closure and people are not likely to return soon.

One of the top ten priorities by New York State for the upstate economic revitalization was recreation and trails, so why is the DEC disharmonious with the state priorities?

The DEC is claiming that the use of these truck trails or “administrative roads” by ATVs is a violation (key word) of the V & T law thus their basis for closure. If that is the case, then the DEC will have to consider these roads as public highways and maintain them as such, by either the DEC or more likely the DOT, to certain standards. The other big question is; if they are public roads who owns the roads, DEC or local towns, and this will determine who has the right to open or close them under the law.

Section 2405 (1) reads:

  1. Highways. Except with respect to interstate highways or controlled access highways, the department of transportation with respect to state highways, maintained by the state and any other governmental agency with to highways, thereof as open for travel by ATVs when in the determination of the governmental agency concerned, it is otherwise impossible for ATVs to gain access to areas or trails adjacent to the highway. Such designations by a state agency shall be by rule or regulation, and such designations by any municipality other than a state agency shall be by local law or ordinance. including bridge and culvert crossings, under its jurisdiction may designate and post any such public highway or portion

If the DEC wants to avoid considering them as public roads and continue to call them “administrative access roads” that is their choice, BUT closure is NOT due a violation of the V & T law. This section of the V & T law simply allows DEC to make that decision and it leaves the decision strictly up to DEC and for them to accept the responsibility with no one to blame.

  1. Public lands other than highways. A governmental agency other than a municipality, by regulation or order, and a municipality, by ordinance or local law, may designate any appropriate public lands, waters and properties other than highways under its jurisdiction as a place open for travel by ATVs upon written request for such designation by any person, and may impose restrictions and conditions for the regulation and safe operation of ATVs on such public property, such as travel on designated trails and hours of operation. In addition, thereto, such agency or municipality may not require the operator of an ATV to possess a motor vehicle operator's license. A municipality may charge a fee for use of ATVs on such public lands.

The other dynamic that could effect this issue is a ruling a few years back by Judge Gilbert against West Carthage when they attempted to close snowmobile trails inside the village.

Lewis County is considering filing an Article 78 against the DEC, which is a civil lawsuit used to challenge an action by a state agency or local government. That would not be in their best interest, DEC has rights and justification under the law, it is a matter of them wanting to accept responsibility for the closure or the responsibility for bringing these roads up to standards.

The DEC Regional Director was reportedly upset about a meeting with area trail coordinators being reported in the Watertown Daily Times. The DEC needs full disclosure for the correct basis of their decision and needs to accept responsibility for the actions.

The area coordinators met this week in Lowville with Senator Griffo and a representative from Assemblywoman Scozzafava’s office, Senator Aubertine’s office was contacted about the meeting, and there was no representative or response, thus leaving him to be labeled by some as the “Silent Senator” on this issue. It is time for Senator Aubertine to step up and join forces of Senator Griffo and Assemblywoman Scozzafava to protect local jobs and the economy.

71 comments:

Anonymous said...

What a vast oversimplification of an incredibly complicated issue

Anonymous said...

No where did blogger IV mention the huge amount of damage done to both private and public property due to the Snirt Run. No where did IV mention the cost of law enforcement for the day. IV just wants to rant and spew ATVer disinformation for his own political agenda. Imagine a state agency, the DEC, following the law voluntarily and closing the truck trails, unlike the local Republican controlled town boards that have illegally opened their highways to ATVs. Many have left them open even after having been told by their insurance companies that they would not have coverage against a claim in case of an ATV accident.Talk about an economic impact! One lawsuit like that would break a town. As for Darrel Aubertine , he is merely practicing that old saying that states "better to remain quiet and be thought a fool, than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt" a la Griffo, a la Scozzafava, a la Political IV.

Anonymous said...

My son was riding in the SNIRT run and was stopped by DEC and ticketed for riding on one of these roads. There were 2 groups with 44 riders ticketed all at once. Word has it that the signs went up after they started travelling down this access road while State Troopers and DEC officials blocked off the other end of the road. Evidently, four-wheeling is profitable for law enforcement agencies as well as local establishments!

Anonymous said...

Commenter number three, I believe your statement would accurately be described as clear BS.

Anonymous said...

Give yourself an IV. The DEC is harmonious with the state's direction. The state wants non-motorized, environment friendly recreation, not these four wheeled earth shredders.

Anonymous said...

To call this blog a vast oversimplification is correct, but an understatement. This blogger really doesn't understand the issues.

Anonymous said...

Snowmobiles are under Recreation Law - not V & TL (re: your reference to Judge Gilbert and W. Carthage)

Anonymous said...

I always hear about how atv's damage the land. but you know what i don't see anymore damage or dirt turned up than that of a farmers field. nobody speaks of the tree's that were cut to make those fields or increased corrosion to the nearby streams and rivers due to the clearcutting of forests. but god forbid if there are trails through those forests for atv's. You also speak of the cost of law enforecement for the snirt run, however do you really believe that the dec increased the amount of manpower for that event. i don't think so. so unless the dec officers were getting commission on the amount of tickets they were writing which the amount of fines far surpasses the cost of law enforcement. I'm not saying that everyone should embrace atv's. however if it is your opinion that atv's have a negative effect on lewis county than keep it as that. your opinion. in my opinion i think at atv travel on paved public highways should be kept to a minimum. however that leaves the one time barren worthless area of tug hill as a perfect sancuary for the baby boomers and families who choose atving as their hobby to go.

Anonymous said...

As for damage done to public property - any time a trail or road is used, it will need to be maintained. The state uses our vehicle registration fees and taxes to maintain highways. They collect those same fees and taxes from ATV riders and those should be used to maintain trails for them. One poster mentioned the money spent on law enforcement for the SNIRT ride. We all pay for the law enforcement to patrol our highways - again with registration and taxes and of course with the fines. ATV riders pay the same fees and should be entitled to the same benefits. So many people say "the state wants..." People, WE are the state, and some of US do NOT want that. I would think that eventually local people would get tired of the politicians in Albany so set on maintaining our back yard here in the North Country so they have some place to vacation. This is not a park. We live and try to work here. NYS, the APA, and the DEC have made it almost completely prohibitive for industry to thrive here. What do we have left for jobs but those that depend on the tourism that is provided by outdoor enthusiasts like ATV riders? Although I do enjoy riding my ATV, I will admit I do get tired of hearing them go up and down our streets and roads, but I do not blame the riders for that. The state has left them no choice because they have closed all of the woods trails off. There is no place left to ride but on the streets and roads. Somehow that just doesn't make sense to me and certainly is far more dangerous that selecting and maintaining a reasonable number of trails off the highway for registered and insured ATVs.

Anonymous said...

The state of New York is sitting on a "gold mine".Close these connector roads, there goes any chance of having a year round business on Tug Hill.Next thing you know there are tumbleweeds rolling down 177.

North Watch said...

Go ATV's! Oh, the poor granola-munching, tree huggers are soooooo sad. I have an idea - let's completely de-populate the North Country and send all tree huggers in their gas-guzzeling vehicles down to New York City to teach those city dwellers a thing or two about the environment...

Anonymous said...

If they want to close trails to 4 wheelers fine. It seems to me that Albany is very quick to get there registration renewal letters out every march and as soon as they recieve there money, bam trail closers. Everyone should follow my lead and not register there atv next year. It's a waste anyway because the money just goes into albanys general fund to spend in nyc and not back into a trail system 4 atvs. This whole atv issue is a joke.

Anonymous said...

The only thing that would keep the tumbleweeds down would be the garbage trucks from the dump we had shoved up our %*@. I have an atv with mirror, horn ,extra lights front and back. I also wear my helmet and dont drink alcohol. Bought it to ride and will pay the fine after a fight, when i get stopped. We all should buy old farm tractors to ride the hill they couldnt stop an agricultural vehicle could they ?

Anonymous said...

what about these DEC horse trails how much damage does a horse do to the enviroment. do you pay regiistration fee to ride a horse on theses trails, where does the money come from to maintain them. 4 wheelere reg. i bet.

Anonymous said...

you blame the atvs for tearing up the trals, the snowmobile trail doesnt go across my property but they think it does,i spend hours picking up beer cans, parts of sleds not to mention all the trees they brake off, fences they tear down,how many dead atv riders are there every year compared to snowmobiles?have you tried to drive your car down some of these so called roads the log trucks have them so tore up, how about the mess the skidders make logging the state land you cant even walk through the woods.

Anonymous said...

we should all take our tractors to the next snirt run and take the trails

Anonymous said...

check out www.atvontario.com the canadian government isnt afraid to make some cash from the atvs maybe new yorks government should learn from them instead of spending all the cash on nyc hookers

Anonymous said...

It's all about $$$ and that's that! As soon as they make us pay more for our registration, insurance, and coming soon "inspection" that's right an inspection!!!Then they will be happy. Some people HATE IT when others are having fun. Upstate NY, got to love it.

Anonymous said...

There was no damage done due to the Snirt Run. The owner of the property in Barnes Corners where the trail turned to a sea of mud was contacted and the Club was prepared to close the trail ,however the land owner had no concerns about the mud and trail and agreed to let it remain open.

Anonymous said...

We pay regristration and insureance on 4wheelers just like snowmobiles and cars ect... We like to ride and enjoy the country it's the ones who like to vandilize and raise holly hell that make us look bad. Contol them or stop them all together and upstate could be a gold mine!!

Anonymous said...

All the state is doing is pushing people to other states to ride like Pennsylvania, or West virginia, or even Canada.
Hey you big wigs in Albany just remember Upstate New York is Northern New York not Albany or Glens Falls areas. More damage is done by snowmobiles then 4wheelers every year. I rode in the Snirt run last year and again this year and everybody in my group had fun but did not tear anything up nor did we see anybody tearing up private lands. As far as the Dec writing the tickets for people on certain trails, No signs were up when the wheelers started to go down the trails put the Clubs made sure maps were given out to every 4wheeler that registered for ther ride, you didn;t register that is your problem then pay the ticket .

Anonymous said...

why register them if u cant ride them?

Anonymous said...

When are the people in the state of New York going to realize that the forests that the DEC manage belong to the people of the state!!
Our state taxes pay for the land and we can't use it unless we walk in. Its the same old crap from the tree huggers. We want the land for future generations to enjoy. We let New York City control everything we do in upstate NY maybe we should take the subways away from the city I'm sure there are some rats that would love to take control of those. We pay for registrations and insurance for ATV's and get nothing in return from the state. ATV companies provide safety training to owners free of charge. Why does the state need any money for registrations when they don't have a trail system to maintain? Oh I forgot we need money for the subways and mass transport in the cities. Just another way for the state to fleece the upstate tax payer. Do ATV's do damage to roads? Of course they do, however does the state do anything to make accessible trails to the fourwheels. No. Until we have trails much like the horse trails the bicycle trails ect... residents that don't pay registrations or insurances there will be no parody in the eyes of the ATV rider. As far as the people that complain about the ATV riders if there weren't any ATV's you'd find something else to complain about. It seems funny you can see petitions with 1000's of ATV riders and I've yet to see one with over 25 or 30 tree huggers. I guess the sqeaky wheels still get the most lube as they say.

Anonymous said...

As usual the DEC will stop at nothing to satisfy the "shadow DEC". I refer to the groups DEC commonly refers to as "stakeholders". You might think that the citizens of this state are the main "stakeholders".Not true. In reality these "stakeholders" are the various environmental groups that are the real power behind the DEC thrown. Big money downstate interests groups who have the DEC Commissioner and the executive managers of DEC in their hip pockets. They continuously orchestrate the environmental policy in this state. The ATV issue is but one more event in the grand deception they continue to pull on the citizens of this great state. There are a huge number of hidden agendas here folks. Regardless of your politics this is just plain bad government.The DEC claims that there is damage but they cite no examples, they claim to be keepers of the environment yet when tens of thousands of fish are killed in the Black River the violator receives a slap on the rist. I wonder if someone hadn't blown in the big walleye kill off in Sandy Creek a few days ago if we would have ever heard about it? What else are they hiding? This ATV issue has always smelled. They've collected fees for registrations for over 20 years and have provided nothing. In most places that's called fraud or theft. As a long time sportsman and outdoorsman I'm very disappointed in what the DEC has become. These environmental zealots will run the recreation industry in this state into the ground if something isn't done soon.

Anonymous said...

Shame on the DEC, Shame on the Politicians, There is plenty of public land for all to enjoy. ATV'ers need trails, and we need to organize a movement, an organized movement, to send Albany a message.

Doctor Swank said...

I was on the Snirt run. And have never seen so many law inforcment personel in one place in the county. Were are thet when hikers and horse riders are leaving their trash on the trails and let their dogs run loose after wild life. I live in Lewis county pay taxes in it and respect the environment in it.

Anonymous said...

from what i can tell its all about who will be sued if someone gets hurt. so why don't people lobby and have a law placed on the books that if your riding on these access roads your riding at your own risk. make the person responsible for thier own actions not a quick way for and idiot to make a quick buck.

Anonymous said...

Lets talk dollars here. This SNIRT ATV event on Tug Hill brought in $175,986.26! There were no accidents, no deaths, no parking complaints, 2 citizen complaints, 112 tickets issued and 1 DWI. There were 1405 people registered and probably another 600 non registered riders on Tug Hill for this event. There was no damage to any truck trail used, nor is there damage any other time of the year to these truck trails...the DEC wants you to think there is so much damage they can't keep up with it, but the reality is that the minor damage is from overuse because there is little public riding available in NYS, and the DEC just killed what was left by magically now calling these truck trails DEC State Roads and Highways. the average rider travelled 106 miles to Barnes Corners for the SNIRT, the average rider stayed 1.71 days on Tug Hill, 95% of riders who responded to the survey said they came to Tug Hill just for the SNIRT, the average rider spent $125.25. These are real numbers for the benefit of recreational tourism on Tug Hill. A great deal of planning goes into this and every ATV event on Tug Hill. We encourage the law enforcement to come and write tickets. We want to show people that they can come and ride, but obey the laws, and respect our environment, and have a good time. 3 local dealers combined total spent by people at their shops DIRECTLY related to the SNIRT event totaled over $350,000. This is sales of machines, service and accessory sales. Not to mention NYS sales tax collected on the machines, and goods, and the NYS registrations from these machines. How much money do Gerry Smiths bird watchers bring into our economy? These numbers are huge. No one is saying ATV's don't do damage. But the 15 million dollars taken from the ATV trail fund, and all of the registration money put into the general fund to help NYS would certainly fix any and all damage done, and still have enough to build sustainable ATV trails throughout NYS. The NYS state land master plan calls for the creation of an ATV trail system which the DEC has sucessfully ignored for 30 years. The people who ride these machines average age is 32 and up. No longer is it the young punks ripping up the environment. These are baby boomers who have lots of cash, are retiring, and who want to ride through the woods. These people vote. these people are not dumb rednecks. These people have had just about enough from the DEC and their policy of no ATV policy. The Lewis County Trail Coordinator is just one person, but the legislators there stand behind him and the recreational tourism they are trying to encourage the right way. His qualifications are outstanding and he is doing his best to put their county wide trail system together. The Jefferson County Trail Coordinator is also trying his best. St. Lawrence, and Oswego Counties are also talking about hiring trail coordinators. It takes more than one summer to do this. All you naysayers and ATV haters take a look at those non exaggerated dollar ammounts, and admit that these machines do help our economy, do bring in lots of dollars to the local businesses, do give all you ATV haters more money for the DEC to buy more land and deny ATV access, so you can walk 500' before the black flies, the deer flies, the noseeums, and the mosquitos suck the life out of you and you turn back to the SUV you drove to get to those lands. You can thank an ATVer for registering and insuring their machine for your forever rotten forests. The insurance issue is another thing some of the ATV haters want you to believe will kill our towns with ATV access on the Town roads. What they don't want you to know is that there has never been a lawsuit against a town in 30 years for an ATV accident on any town road. What they do not tell you is that the ATV association has nearly identical insurance as the snowmobile clubs (which have deaths EVERY year, and the landowners and towns don't even hear from the lawyers) and every town with open roads to ATV's are listed as additionally insured on the ATV Associations insurance policy. What more do they want? The ATV haters are getting scared. The people getting involved in the fight for the right to ride their ATV's are geting stronger and stronger. This issue is not going away. The numbers are indisputable. The $176,000 from the SNIRT, 1 ATV event doesn't even begin to add in wages of workers, the businesses, the gas sold, the hotel rooms, the bed tax generated, the sales tax, on and on it goes....We are sick of Bruce Krug spreading misinformation every time he opens his mouth. All we want are trails to ride on, connecting roads to businesses and amenities, a little help from the state DEC, and our trail fund back. Why do Ohio, WVA, VA, PA, Mass, VT, NH, Maine and nearly every state west of the Mississippi all have sucessful state ATV programs, yet NYS says its impossible? YES, Mass AND Vermont have ATV Riding areas, and trails funded with registration dollars. Maybe its because they see the dollars and sense it makes.

Anonymous said...

Comparing farms, loggers and legitmate traffic to ATV riding only underscores the level of ignorance in the ATV community. Farmers are feeding you and loggers are involved in legitimate enterprise and have rules to obey. Hey, go eat a four wheeler. If the Snirt Run is an example of good ATV stewardship, you are in big trouble.

smono55 said...

it is absolutly ridiculous to close the trails. the cars and trucks that drive down these so called dec truck trails do as much damage as a atv would. i know beartown is a popular place to ride thru and i also know alot of people go mud bogging with thier trucks thru there which is alot more damage than any wheeler would do. the money that the state and local businesses in lewis county will lose is fanominal and pointless. we are all payin all this money to reg and insure our atv's with no where to ride them. my husband went on the snirt run and said it was awesome and would love to do it again. we just bought a new wheeler a month ago and now we can't ride it anywhere. as for the snowmobilers they do far more damage and kill far more people. in the winter you hear some almost every week getting killed or critical injured in a snowmobile accident. how often do you hear that with atv's? at my work we have a petition going that was started 3 days ago and we have around 100 signatures already and gettin more everyday. i hope the dec and the government smarten up and see how much money atv's actually bring to this area.

Anonymous said...

I don't understand why the DEC policy gets to be controled by downstate politically appointed "officials" who have no background in biological studies. the biologists and field staff make recomendations based on science and those folks turn to their political buddies and ignore the science. the ATV community does do some damage, but they also pay dearly for registration and trail fees so that damage can be repaired properly. Do the downstate tree hugging hikers who have been flocking to the ADK's for years contribute anything directly to the DEC to repair the damage they cause...NO! there is so much damage dome on those hiking trails that it is past repairable. If ATV users are going to be held back from their sport,and have their deticated trail fund stolen from, they need to make sure every media form in the state knows about it. Gov. Paterson has 'stolen' money from a bunch of accounts over the last 2 weeks that were deticated funds, but not adjusted the funds of any of his special intrest projects. He is a downstater through and through and has every intention to ignore the rest of the state, exept for his open hand at tax time.
by the way, I don't own an ATV, but support those folks in their fight.

Anonymous said...

Hey smono55, the cars and trucks don't leave the road and wreck the forest, ride around in streams or tear up wetlands like the ATVs.

Anonymous said...

This is so typical! It's the hikers, it's the horses, it's the treehuggers. You four wheeling whiners need to look in the mirror.

Anonymous said...

Your registrations aren't about having a place to ride, they're about providing identification for when you engage in your outlaw behavior.

Anonymous said...

When ATVers don't like a law, their first impulse seems to be to disobey it- such as, "I'm not gonna get my registration no more". If you don't have a place to ride it,don't buy it.

Anonymous said...

For you four wheeler riders complaining about farmers, I have a question, What are you trying to do, create a chicken wing shortage at the Montague Inn?

Anonymous said...

Hey wheeler riders I didn't hear one thing about the horses,they moved in and complained about the wheelers then the dec stepped in and closed roads thats bs...they have free camping,running water hot and cold,out houses,pavillions,free manure removal,fancy firepits,all this is provided free they don't register their horse here or buy hay they bring it with them oh and electricity...ye they have the convenients of home on our wheeler expence.And did you ever see a horse trail what a joke,we meet a horse rider and they won't move they want you to go off the road when a horse is supose to use a trail if you don't get out of the way they scream at ya.they should have to pay a trail fee and should have to stay on designated horse tails they grade the road then they jump on there horse and the road is like a wash board to drive your truck on.You always hear of horse riders getting hurt to and did you ever see the trash along the roads when horses have been through the trails? its disgusting then wheelers get the blame.by the way if we had wheeler enthusias that worked in dadville then we would still have our wheeler trails.Oh ps if we had nice lookin rears on our wheelers then the big shots might like wheelers too.

susan said...

When is this battle on the hill going to end, look at the arrests and deaths between ATV and Snowmobilers, there is no comparison. Why do ATV get such a bad rap when we do fundraisers all year long for different charities. Last year the town closed their road, but when the tax payers complained they reopened them. Now the DEC wants to close the truck trails, WHY, what is their logic or are they just being impossible. As far as the cost for the snirt run, come on, did we really need all those patrols up there, i did not attend but heard from friends that it was very successful and fun and no problems. Open the truck trails, leave the families alone and let them enjoy themselves on the hill. Ps, some time take a look at the windmills up there, you want to see something ugly and out of place, they certainly took away the acres of winderness beauty up there, but nobody complains about them.
ATV ruin very little land.

Anonymous said...

yes susan, we neded the patrols. tresspassing occurred on private as wl as state land.why did DEC close the trails? can you read? are you paying attention. this was the only DEC region with truck trails open to ATVs. that is illegal and that is why they were closed. families, yeah right. you mean yahoos.

Anonymous said...

You know what, maybe the state should closed off all the trails for snowmobilers as well and lets see who cries then.
We need to work together and we can all play on our toys. 7-10 of us ride just about every week and No one has complained or saw the law, what it is is pepole see the BAD Apples and that means we are all bad, Not the case. You still ahve complainers, it's just like the one who sit home and twiddle their thumbs, are the most comoplainers. Need to get a grip and work together!!

Anonymous said...

Don't lump us snowmobilers in with the mudslinging ATVs. You wheelers are your own worst enemies. We can still ride the truck trails because we don't ride in streams and deliberately tear up ground.

Anonymous said...

you must be the only one im sick of fixing the fence and replanting x mas trees that sleds drive over on posted land

Anonymous said...

2:25 you are on drugs.

Anonymous said...

snowmobiler,
you forgot a LARGE percent of the ATV riders on the SNIRT RUN are also Snowmobile owners.

concerned said...

Again, What the heck do the Tree loaders, Loggers (Skids)do to the roads that is LESS "Earth Friendly"? "The state wants non-motorized, environment friendly recreation, not these four wheeled earth shredders"? Wake up and may your horse live long.
Fed Up

Anonymous said...

So we are expected to fight forest fires on state land, yet we can't go out and enjoy it? SO when a fire kindles on state land and the only access is by ATV, then what?
I say let it burn. Forever wild.

Then we'll see how enjoyable it is to go for a hike/jog/walk/ski through a scorched bbq pit.


IF there was a trail system, public/private land damage WOULD be minimal because the riders would be satisfied and STAY on the trails.

Anonymous said...

Cars and trucks don't tear up the roads? What are you smoking?

Maybe we should have a rally race on some of these roads and we'll see what cars and trucks do to roads.

Anonymous said...

Dear ATV thinking impaired, Cars, trucks, tractors, logging equipment all have their impacts, certainly, but they are used for legitmate industry to produce products we all need. Now pay close attention- ATVs do not. They are a recreational vehicle that causes serious damage with no production of a legitmate product. Another way to say it is, there is no benefit in a cost/benefit analysis, unless the vast consumption of alcoholic beverages on our highways is seen as a benefit to society.

Anonymous said...

"If there were a trail system ATVers would be satisfied"... Wrong. Studies have shown that there is no reduction in unlawful behavior by ATV riders in states that provide trails. In fact, all the trails do is provide a new way for the ATVs to get where they don't belong. Some states,such as Massachusetts, have actually closed down areas that they previously opened up because the ATV riders were so out of control.

Anonymous said...

This snowmobiler wants ATVs off our trails. If Lewis County starts allowing ATVs on snowmobile trails we will ride elsewhere. ATVs trash snowmobile trails.

Anonymous said...

Are you kiddin? It's the states fault that these morons are riding on our roads? What about personal responsibility and obeying the law? This is an outlaw crowd with an entitlement twist.

Anonymous said...

A few comments:

Both snowmobiles and 4-wheelers do "damage" to the environment. Riders of both machines drink alcohol and trespass and show disregard for the rights of others. But the number of folks who behave this way is small. Most of us ride with our families or friends, in a way that is no more hazardous to the environment than a car or truck or tractor. It's an enjoyable way to spend time, checking out the scenery on Tug Hill. Usually the amounts of money added to the economy presented by snowmobile or ATV clubs seems inflated to me. The numbers in the reply to this blog are actually the most realistic I've seen. It is true that enforcement was stepped up for the snirt run. Many tickets were issued. There is no doubt that both ATV's and snowmobiling bring money into the area.

For those of you who are so desperately worried about the "pristine wilderness" of Tug Hill: give me a break. I'll bet you can't find 10 trees within a mile radius anywhere on the hill that are over 60 years old. Most of it was totally shaved bald by 1900 for farms and sawmills. The last of the big trees was down by Redfield, and that clump blew down in the 1940's.

So where are all the traces of the farms that replaced the original forest? Mother Nature has reclaimed them, just as she will also reclaim the "scars" of 4-wheeling and snowmobiling. People need to have a longer view of this issue. We SHOULD be able to use state trails for recreation. It IS our land, after all. The environment is more resilient than many people give it credit for. The main thing people have to learn to do is compromise and work together. It's absolutely asinine that Lewis County has hired a trail coordinator, for tens of thousands of tax dollars, only to have the state make all that money wasted in one arbitrary, shortsighted decision.

"It's when we're frozen in our positions that we're most likely to get cracked."

Lets get this issue resolved soon. A trail system needs to be created. There IS room enough on Tug Hill for both the environment AND the responsible enjoyment of it.

Anonymous said...

"But the number who behave this way is small". Says you. The number of bad actors in the ATV community is high-- not this "small minority" claptrap we keep getting. The problem the ATV proponents have is, no matter whether the number of bad actors is large or small, once the damage is done, it's done. How is anyone, including law enforcement able to look at a group and know who the bad apples are before the damage is done?

Anonymous said...

Snowmobile clubs work. Atv clubs whine.

Anonymous said...

1. atvs are here to stay. there currently are at a minimum 4 atvs to every snowsled in upstate ny. atvs for the last two years have and continue to out sell other recreational vehicles by a 4 to one ratio.
2. nys requires registration and insurance and sales tax which filters its way to the county of purchase on all atv sales.atvers spend money for fuel, food ,lodging, beverages etc. I believe this creates more revenue for every town businees and goverment on a local basis.when you look at the big picture and weigh all the financial rewards a safe signed secure connecting trail system for atving in upstate ny ,dec region 6, means millions of dollars of revenue for our local residents, business and county goverments.
3.reference truck trail;s on dec state property, most of these truck trails now called roads have been open for nearly 25years,or at least not enforced to prohibit atv riding, it is a proven fact that there is no or at best very little maintance needed to maintain these dec truck trails, they are hardened dirt and stone roads ,most are signed and are wide and create no dangerous conditons for atv riding or to the general public... These road/trails are state property bought and maintained by state tax dollars ,which means our tax dollars and should be available for all to enjoy, this means all user groups to include atvers.
4. what is wrong with the powers to be the only thing left in upstate ny to promote and bring in revenue and support our mom and pop businesses is the recreation industry which currently in our demographic area is atving as the biggest group. why do we want to turn our heads and ignore the many monetary gains for all concerned and shove aside the only growing industry in the upstate ny area????5. to the tree huggers and worried enviromentalists the problem is not atving but education and enforcement, for the biggest portion of atvers will abide by the rules and if given a safe signed trail system will stay on that system and obey the rules.. we dont shut our nations highways and roads because of a few reckless speeders and drunks so why do we insist on shutting down atving for a few bad apples? lets work to gether and weed out the bad apples and build a SAFE SIGNED LEGAL TRAIL SYSTEM WITH THE BASE ROOTS BEING THE DEC TRUCK TRAILS IN REGION 6....
6. UPSTATE NY SHOULD BE RUN AND DECISIONS MADE BY UPSTATE NEWYORKERS not down state city slickers they may not even no what an atv is or for that matter what a tree is.......
7.when you look at the benefits vs the possible harm the scale is 75 to one in favor of atving, lets open our eyes and get on the band wagon and make upstate ny a recreational paradise for all user groups to enjoy and for all to benefit from this means atvers, snowmobilers, hikers ,skiers etc, believe it or not there is room for all to get along and enjoy...... atv club chairman jefferson county

Anonymous said...

ATV club chairman Jefferson County- Just who might you be? Last I knew you quit. 75-1 benefits to ATVs? What side of your gazoo did you pull that out of? The ATVers are high percentage bad actors. Want a taste? Go to NYRiders.com. Ther's an idiot on the forum right now talking about how he wants a confrontation with a landowner. You deserve the problems you are having.

Anonymous said...

atv club chairman is making my point. always looking to have someone give you something. work like the snowmobile clubs have.

Anonymous said...

Being a landoowner and having the snowmobile club run through my land. I deal with ALOT of BS from that, and I WILL close my land to the snowmobile trail if atv;s are not allow to ride on trails

Anonymous said...

Private land owner with snowmobile trail on it that was never approved of by former owner. Ok, they use my land for snowmobiles, and cross country skiing. Who will be liable if that skier gets hit by a snowmobile coming around the corner. And not to mention all the apple trees etc, that were cut down and stumps left behind for me to ruin my mower trying to keep our own land nice for us to use as recreation and hunting. Yes and not one person in this county or the snowmobile club will say how they got this approved by the state. We make a decision every year as to wether we will allow these snowmobiles to use our land to connect to the trail. But I do not ride snowmobiles because they are too fast and dangerous and the idiots from the city don't know how to drive safely and are usually bar hopping. We are considering buying a 4 wheeler just to go for a leisurly ride with family and friends. We enjoy the warmer weather so would like the opportunity to be able to go somewhere to ride. I guess its okay to cut down private land owners trees, well what about the loggers who cut down trees on state land. Where does that money go? They bid on the trees is my understanding, so why aren't they using that money to create and maintain trails where the loggers have cleared. And why is it mandatory to register and insure an atv if you can't go anywhere to ride them. And I love having the Amish here in our area. Added business, but do they register their buggies and horses. Drive down the road and even a few days after new gravel has been laid down and see the ruts from the steel wheels and the horses shoes. Who is going to keep mainting those roads. And there have been more accidents with their buggies than i've read about atv's. What's the deal.Should i buy an atv or should i buy a three wheeled motorcycle so i can fly down the highways... big choices here. Wake up Bruce Krug and everyone else against them and let the trails remain open. I guess the change in Albany and new legislatures isnt going do us any good. I'm sick of paying salaries and fees and this and that for all these people to use my money improperly. Get with it and give us a break. We aren't getting a break on these beautiful windmills that are benefiting NYC are we? Maybe work on getting a few to supply our towns might help , then I'd have more money to put gas into my atv so i can ride.

Anonymous said...

I know people who work for DEC and are ATV rider's they don't agree with the closing of the trails.
Some of these guys maintan the trails some are in Law enforcement no asks there opinion they just listen to the Lawyers and special intrests. Not every one at DEC is an ATV hater but they are in the minority

Anonymous said...

Now to address the idiot snowmobiler who doesn't want atv's on his trail. When did you become owner of the trail. Your trail groomer has rutted up and tore my grass up and that's ok. THat is now your trail..it's my property. I think I will just say no to you too. Then i don't have to worry about you morons who think you can go ahead and remove my tires that block entrance to MY land before hunting season is over. Dear god, what would happen if you were shot off that your snowmobile on MY LAND. All we need is an atv trail. I don't know of anyone who wants the atv's on the snowmobile trail. But I don't want you on it either. The snowmobile club does not own it either. I think we should be able to shut that trail down too. See how much business Lewis County can lose then. Oh well..cam't please everyone. Guess i'll just buy a bicycle and get killed riding down the side of the road or walking down the side. Your car insurance would be liable then.

Anonymous said...

IF all the big wigs in Albany would buy an atv and come to Lewis county for a weekend of fun, it would cost us tax payers less money than their little trips to Washington for a one night hooker. Does the hooker claim her money as income or recreation. We can show you how to live and enjoy life as we have it outside the cities. Try it once, you might like it and come back. And they got wheeler with a seat for a passenger. cheap night out in this neck of the woods.

Anonymous said...

To 1:23AM-I'll take the hooker any day over the ATV. Looks better, smells better, only messes up your bed sheets and not the land and water, and if you fall off you won't get hurt. These ATV nuts really are morons.

Anonymous said...

You people and the "economy". You don't care two farts about the "economy". All you want to do is tear around and ruin everyone else's quality of life. The previous three years were lousy snowmobile years, yet the unemployment rate in Lewis County went down, anyway. This year was a good snowmobile year and the unemployment rate went up. Your economic effect doesn't make a ripple.

Anonymous said...

i for one am sick and tired of the great POLICE state of ny dictating what my PRIVALAGES are,what ever happened to my rights?as far as tearing the adirondacks up what is worse than the logging industry?of course the state makes $ off that,i license and insure my atv to ride it around my house? what harm does it do to ride snowmobiles trails in the summer and fall?maybe some idiot down in albany or nyc who has a summer mansion in the adirondacks can explain that to me?? i will be happy when i leave this state and go somewhere i can get some breathing room

Anonymous said...

Hey, when are you leaving? I'll help you pack.

Anonymous said...

It isn't the State Police, it is the DEC who is dictating on what you can do. The DEC in Albany needs to be knocked down a peg or two.We pay taxes and what do we get, nothing but hassle from them and the Environmental groups.Makes you wonder who is running the state

Anonymous said...

So... paying taxes means you can run over every other thing in your path? What a warped sense of entitlement!

Anonymous said...

Just because a person rides an ATV does not mean that they ride over everything. I don't know where you get your info from but you couldn't
be more wrong. I'm saying we pay taxes on thousands of acres of land and then be told a trail cannot be made.If you think that of all ATV riders than you are as narrow minded as Bruce Krug and his so called followers

Anonymous said...

Mr. Trail Man in Lewis County Robert Diehl is doing great. He is going to and I quote continue to fight. Diehl, this is like a fight that the referee should stop. Krug has knocked you down ten times, you get up and take another punch. When you started, you had many miles of illegal trails now you got nothing. The taxpayers have paid you for two and a half years, and lucas has less now than he did before you arrived. In the private sector you would be gone. Happy trails to you.

Anonymous said...

After paying for car insurance and registration wouldn't it be absolutely crazy if cars could not travel on county or state highways. Thats all ATV'ers are saying. With over $12 million paid in registration and insurance fees and getting nothing for it, how can you say this is fair.

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