"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"
Thomas Jefferson

Wednesday, October 8, 2008

Jefferson County Legislature Inept On JCC Plan

Jefferson County failed in it's duty to give the JCC master plan a vote and pass it onto the state, instead they chose to delay their vote and risk missing the state deadline of November 1st. The JCC master plan has been in the hands of lawmakers for over 4 months and yet they wait until the last month to decide they want more information on actual cost versus estimated cost.

Actual cost?According to the Watertown Daily Times article;
Mr. Blankenbush warned legislators: "What you're doing is asking for figures that the college can't give you."
The plan lays out the capital projects that will allow the strategic plan for the college to take place. The implementation process involves determining what programs and services the college will provide or enhance, determine what facilities will be needed to provide the programs and services, then design the structures necessary, determine hard cost associated and funding. The entire process of the master plan and strategic plan is designed to enhance enrollment for the college, something that appears entirely lost on the Jefferson County Legislature, who are viewing this as pure cost.

The master plan does not commit the county taxpayers to any money, until a time when implementation is determined feasible, which requires a whole series of information such as; revenue and expenditures with enrollment expectations, effects on operations, hard construction cost of new facility. Each item is brought back to the Board of Legislators for an individual vote.
Mr. Blankenbush said, "It has to come back to us. What other way can we protect the taxpayers of this county except to have every single item in this plan come back to us for a vote?"
The County wants to accomplish the task of determining true cost between now and November 1st, when they had between June and now to handle that task. 
Legislator Phil Reed stated, "There's a vision, but there's also a reality. And I don't think 30 days will hurt anything."
Does the county intend to cut the plan up, it sounds like it according to Legislator Mike Docteur, who favors expanding the jail, but not expanding the college.
Mr. Docteur, R-Cape Vincent, agreed, saying the plan "was a little too ambitious, not only for these economic times, but for this community."

(Hat Tip - To the Watertown Daily Times for quotes)

31 comments:

Danny M. Francis (Eyepublius) said...

I totally disagree with this statement from Cape Vincent County Legislator Mike Docteur, who said the plan, “Was a little too ambitious, not only for these economic times, but for this community.” Mr. Docteur, this is the 21st Century, not the 19th!

It's NOT too ambitious for this community, which by-the-way is the largest growing community in NYS - yes, we are the fastest growing county in NYS ... due mostly in part to massive expansion of Fort Drum - which will grow even more. But, education-wise we can’t keep up for one reason, or should I say, “We don’t want to keep up except in very controlled and measured ways, and that has caused many other related problems with lack of housing, good roads, and new business and industry, etc.,” but that’s a topic for later.

They are all wrong about this JCC expansion plan for many reasons ... the approach should be, nay, must be, for a 4-year SUNY College at Watertown, not expanding and keeping our same status quo 2-year school – as good as it is ... as others benefit from our shortsightedness about a serious need for a 4-year school here.

We need it. We can support it. And, it's long over due for many, many economic reasons all related to education (which is a huge business, yes huge business).

Our kids stay here, the base would expand more here, and the money, income and payrolls would all stay here, too. It would not go back to Oswego, Potsdam, or out of state to a school that offers post, 2-year opportunities at our expense while we don’t.

The whole issue is ass backwards and the problem, the basic problem, is that our “leaders” are not leading and they continue to fail on this topic. JCC's approach also is wrong ... they should be pushing to expand, but expand into a 4-year school ... protecting a 2-year school in this day and age as others (i.e., Canton, Morrisville) converted to 4-year schools, is simply shortsighted and way, way out of touch.

The GOP around here, and I hate to make it political, but it is already, loves to talk about competition, competition this, that, and druthers – well, having a 4-year college here in Watertown would be competition we could learn to love and benefit from for the future. We should be demanding that and not fighting over sustaining JCC the way it is... BTW: a 4-year school can offer a 2-year degree / certificate / license, too, if that’s all a person wants or needs. But, higher education is the key...

~ dmf

Anonymous said...

I have to agree with Mr. Francis. With the cost of labor and materials so high, why would anyone be looking in terms of 10 years or less? We should be looking at a 4 year college that will handle the population explosion.

Anonymous said...

Just like the County jail project it will end up costing us all more in the long run!!! They could have voted for it submit the plan on time and then changed it becuase of funding or other opportunities to reduce cost. Basically continue to do what they are doing now forming a committee to review it. They knew this vote was coming up why oh why didn't they form a committee to review it with the college BEFORE it came to the full Board. What a gross lack of vision!!!

Anonymous said...

It is absolutely absurd that our community can't do anything right. I think we should put on the ballot for tax payers to make the decision and cut these fools right out of it. Obviously they are not qualified enough for their positions in promoting a stronger educatinal facility which would add jobs and bring more money into the community. How can we let JCC fall behind other community colleges that aren't in as good of a position as us? Voters need to do a better job of electing of officials that will look out for the best interest of the county.

Danny M. Francis (Eyepublius) said...

For a "Certain Anonymous:"

You speak of political heresy with your post in part:

"Voters need to do a better job of electing of officials that will look out for the best interest of the county."

The only thing most voters around here look at are the "R" or "D" after the name of the candidadte, then they pull the "R" level - it's in their DNA ... I know, I've studied it and been a student of it for years.

LOL

Anonymous said...

It is disgusting that political posturing is getting in the way of doing what is right for our community. NO FUNDS ARE BEING COMMITTED TO RIGHT NOW. Don't the legislatures get that?? By not putting the plan forward, they are jeopardizing the possibility of getting State funds allocated for our community. When costs are prepared at the state level and funds awarded, then the legislators can make decisions on what parts of the plan to move forward with. These legislators are idiots. Their ineptitude will mean that state dollars go to other communities instead of Watertown.

Could somebody post a list of names of the legislators names who voted against it??

Anonymous said...

As a staff member at Jefferson Community College I have seen little to no improvements over the years and for the county legislature to vote "No" on the plan is crazy. I would think they would want to build a better educational facility for the young adults of the county as well as bring in money from outside the area. I can't believe that this was even an issue. I have traveled to many of the community colleges and have seen what their facilities look like and JCC looks like a condemned school compared to them. Take a look at MCC, OCC, HVCC, BCC, or just look at all them and see that Jefferson is the most outdated campus. We need to have dorms, better educational facilities, and improved athletic facilities.

Anonymous said...

Sidney,
Read the newspaper or check the watertowndailytimes.com website. The names have been there since 5:00am this morning....

Anonymous said...

Great job legislators! The keeping up with the Jones has this country in the financial mess its in now. Fiscal responsibility is not popular. I am sure we would end up as taxpayers paying alot, now and long term. If done right, meaning not all the bells and whistles, I am for expansion. THINK, RESEARCH, COMPROMISE, MOVE FORWARD

Anonymous said...

It's a refreshing change to see lawmakers concerned with cost. Make it a 4 year school let the State pay for it, under SUNY Administration.

Anonymous said...

I am sorry if I do not agree with the majority of you. How many of you have children in a college like JCC now? Do you know that if one person does not feel that your child is living up to their potential they can dismiss your child from school, stop your child from getting any finical aide or student loans. Can a parent talk with the students professors? Not at JCC. According to JCC its a violation of the students confidentiality. Hmmm I pay for school but I can't find out how my child is doing, if my child is attending class or if my child dropped all his/her classes.

I think that if JCC wants to be like the other 4 year schools they need to be more like them. The school my child attends now respects parental involvement, they don't push them away. They talk with parents when the child is doing poorly, not just to the child.

JCC you want money: 1st stop catering to Fort Drum and remember who has keep you afloat from the time you opened.
2nd: Stop pushing the parents away and let them be part of their child learning process. Going from high school to college is a big step and kids need to know that they still have parental support.
3rd: When you have problems with parents, don't tell them its my way or no way. We all know that you only tell the County Legislatures what you want them to know so we the parents tell them the problems we encounter with you.
last but not least: IF you can't run a 2 year school without teachers breaching confidentiality of students, or teachers losing papers that the students write therefore failing them, how do you plan on running a 4 year school.

Anonymous said...

Let me make a small suggestion:

Have the ad hoc committee take a 50 minute tour of the JCC campus, followed by a tour of only a couple of the High Schools in the County, such as Indian River and South Jefferson.

It would be difficult for them to hide their embarassment afterward.

ConcernedCitizen said...

Good comment, Dan.

In the early 50's there was talk of a junior college, right here in Watertown. I had hopes. But, It didn't happen soon enough and when I got out of high school here in Jefferson County, I had to leave to go to a community college far away, and then to a four year college at another town and then commute for an advanced degree many miles down the road. I burnt up a lot of energy and it took me 43 years to come back home.

My county rep in the 50's, was a Democrat and a great friend of my Dad's. He opposed the "Junior College" and gave the same reasons as those who said NO last night. I hated his attitude toward local education and his short-sighted thinking stuck with me forever. He was proved wrong. And they built a great school, JCC.

Why drive our local kids away? Why not give the military kids an opportunity for a convenient start?

I was in Potsdam Sunday, a wonderful, forward thinking, one-horse town (oops, sorry nephew who I watched perform there) which flourishes on education thanks to the forward thinking of some guy who said, "Hey let's build a college", and his rival, not to be outdone said, "Hell, let's build two

Anonymous said...

I know one legislator who won't be getting a vote next year!!! They should pack the idiots in the JCC van, oh I forgot our college doesn't have one and send them on a tour of all the other nearby community college. Then and only then could I respect their vote!!! Perhaps change and vision should continue into next year's election.

Mr.Scott said...

I think Dan is right. For those of you new to the area... For years Jefferson has FOUGHT OFF attempts to make it a four year school. They told us that college would become MUCH more expensive and we would lose local control if JCC became a four year college. To many of us it appeared that the administration was more interested in protecting their turf rather than doing what is best for our community.

Maybe I missed it, but I still haven't heard anyone mention Jefferson becomming a four year school. I believe they intend to keep Jefferson a two year school with dorms simular to Canton. I titally agree with Danny in that we need a four year SUNY college in Watertown, not an expanded two year school.

I do NOT however agree that our county legislators should have backed this plan unconditionaly and sent it on to the state. EVERYONE has to make sure that OUR money is being spent wisely. Local AND State money all comes from the same place.... US. The taxpayers.

Personally I am glad that our local legislators didn't rubber stamp it and send it on. Frankly I think that our local government does a much better job of watching how tax money is spent. All you have to do is read the state budget line by line and you will understand what I mean. I once saw a fairly large grant to a TEAPOT MUSEUM!

Danny M. Francis (Eyepublius) said...

Wiley: thanks.

I wonder how many know (probably everyone I hope) that in a 10-mile radius of Canton-Potsdam there are 4, 4-year colleges.

SUNY Canton (converted from 2-year to 4-year awhile back); Clarkson (Pvt school); SUNY Potsdam and St. Lawrence U (also Pvt school) - all of them haul in our students, our money and our growth.

Neat, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

The facilities at JCC are an embarassment? What world are you living in? If they are, fire the administration of the College. Jefferson County gives them millions every year. Where does it go?

Also. If anyone want to know why School taxes are an issue this election year. Take a look at Indian River and South Jeff. They are building facilities that we are rapidly learning we can no longer afford.

I support the master plan for the college, but don't spew any BS about the conditions. I have been there to much to buy that crap

RiverBlogger said...

Reminder people...NYS is facing an $8 BILLION dollar deficit. I don't get you all. When will we say enough is enough, we just have to put things on hold. There is no reason to waste time sending something to NYS to review that we cannot afford if approved. IV says there is no cost to the County, what about furnishings, staff, maintenace, insurance, damage etc...I think we all know by now nothing is free...

Danny M. Francis (Eyepublius) said...

Mr. Scott: I have ranted and raved about JCC becoming a SUNY College of Watertown since 1995 when I first made a formal presentation at the old Supervisors board and got laughed at ... and pretty much since - that's why I quit going there and speaking out - they don't comprehend too good! LOL

Anyway, Canton, BTW was converted from 2-year to 4-year along with Morrisville Ag-Tech a few years back... and now Canton is thriving as a strong SUNY 4-year school.

Sadly the money that they and Potsdam and Oswego make is mostly from our kids going there from here.

Ditto - others (my two went to Buffalo and Binghamton - both SUNY schools, btw) ...

We need to lead on this issue - it is our future, believe me it is.

If there's one thing I know, it's post-secondary education/higher education...

Sticking with JCC like this (piecemeal) is like sucking hind teat ... you get there late, you get less milk and grow slower and smaller - that may be the conservative way - but it sure leaves us far behind other areas growing past us.

We have to be better than that.

JediXtine said...

Here they are, the Jefferson County Legislators you should NOT reelect when it comes time.

"Legislators Jennie M. Adsit, Robert A. Boice, Michael J. Docteur, James A. Nabywaniec, Barry M. Ormsby, Philip N. Reed, Robert J. Thomas and Gino M. Zando voted to postpone a decision."

I am all for SUNY taking over Jefferson Community College, maybe then the faculty wages would be more comparable to someone with a master's degree and an expert in their field instead of someone flipping burgers.

And to the anonymous poster who is complaining that they can't have access to their child's progress that is not college policy, it is federal law, also known as FERPA or the Buckley Amendment. You cannot have access unless the student signs a waiver for you to have access-here is the proof "FERPA gives parents certain rights with respect to their children's education records. These rights transfer to the student when he or she reaches the age of 18 or attends a school beyond the high school level. Students to whom the rights have transferred are "eligible students." Is your college student over 18? Probably...so like it or not the information is theirs, whether or not you are paying the bill.

ConcernedCitizen said...

We all assume that with predicted hard times, every thing will stop. Not so.

During the great depression, unlike like many businesses, education did not disappear. In fact, enrollments increased as young people had less opportunity in business and sought the security of an education.

Many teachers went to work and worked for reductions in pay or promises of being paid in the future. Many never collected on that promise.

Education got many of our young through the great depression and gave them hope.

Industrial towns without schools and colleges
failed. Industrial towns with schools and colleges survived.

You can't table education and expect to survive.

ConcernedCitizen said...

"There is no reason to waste time sending something to NYS to review that.."

"Review", that is the point. Without it ever getting to the State as a reminder of at least some interest, then the State will interpret that as a "no thanks", and it's dead.

Danny M. Francis (Eyepublius) said...

Higher education, indeed education in general, is the key to unlocking our future - ducking and dancing around it like this JCC flap keeps that door locked and the key in the hands of those who can't or won't accept change, let alone know how to spell change.

If the voters truly want change, then they have to make change...

Danny M. Francis (Eyepublius) said...

I am so sick and tired of the rabid partisanship from both sides: My own party won't support me and the other party hates my guts ...

I must be doing something right?

LOL

Anonymous said...

I'm in the other party, Danny, and I don't hate you. You are one of the donkeys who sometimes, seldom mind you, is willing to break from the party line. For that reason I kinda like you.

Now the follow up is, why, with a logical military background, do you ally yourself so totally with the party of heart, and no brain?

Danny M. Francis (Eyepublius) said...

I may change my voter registration after Nov 4th... I'm seriously thinking about myself as I get older and hopefully wiser and smarter - some principles are hard to shake...

If I were a GOPer, I'd be labeled too liberal... and quite frankly I am not liberal expect on issues of government trampling on people with the power of the purse.

My upbringing kicks in then and I know what hardships are and how government can help ... if done correctly.

Some far right views I simply cannot subscribe to. They are too fixed in their ways and not willing to listen or learn. That bothers me greatly.

BTW: My mother was a lifelong Republican - my dad the blue collar, hodcarrier, part time farmer and coal miner staunch DEM labor guy.

Anonymous said...

It amazes me that the banks are going out of business and the stock market is tanking and you guys are pissed because these legislators wouldn't vote for a $60+ million plan with little or no details. What am I missing? Conservative Scott Gray siding with liberal democrats. It's all very bizarre.

Anonymous said...

Interesting Danny. Thanks for the revelations. I often wonder how people end up with political beliefs that they do. Enjoy the weekend. It's supposed to be nice.

Danny M. Francis (Eyepublius) said...

My birthday is tomorrow (the 11th) - I surely will enjoy it - thanks.

It's a long week end, too... Columbus Day (the 12th) always follows my birthday - isn't that interesting?

LOL

Anonymous said...

Happy Birday to Dan Francis.

Marine Vet.

Danny M. Francis (Eyepublius) said...

Semper Fi to all... [Always Faithful]...

~ dmf

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